Interview of President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva, at breakfast with foreign correspondents

President Lula — No. Just one thing so that there’s a very wide range of questions; I don't know how much is established in terms of questions. I just wanted to start by telling you the following: we ended the first semester of 2023, here in Brazil, in a very encouraging situation – I would say with good expectations for the second semester. All of you know, those who have followed politics in Brazil for a while, that almost all the public policies that we had implemented between 2003 and 2013 were deactivated and destroyed by the previous government. Especially after the coup against President Dilma [Dilma Rousseff, former president of Brazil]. When we came to the government, we had to rebuild all the social inclusion policies that we’d created – around 40 policies that had been completely destroyed. To mention a few examples: Bolsa Família, Cisternas, Luz para Todos, Água para Todos – all these had been deactivated.

And so we made the commitment to reactivate the construction of 4,000 day care centers that had been shut down in this country, and 14,000 other infrastructure works that had been shut down since the coup against Dilma. So we decided to establish two different moments of governance. During the first, we’d recover everything that was working, everything that we understood were great social inclusion policies. That’s already settled. We’ve already revived all the policies. They’re in progress. The second step we’re going to take is to announce, on the 11th, in Rio de Janeiro, a new development policy, a new investment policy in infrastructure works and a new industrial development policy.

Obviously we have a project – that I hope you can participate in – which will be in Rio de Janeiro. I think it will be at the Municipal Theatre [Teatro Municipal] in Rio de Janeiro. So, if the news is not good, the theater is beautiful, you’ll enjoy yourselves and get to see the Municipal Theater, which was also renovated by our government. We’re going to do a lot of infrastructure work, we’re going to resume all of Petrobras' development policies. Petrobras is once again a big company, not just an oil company, but an energy company, concerned not only with drilling wells, but with producing biodiesel, producing, you know, everything within the energy transition that is necessary for us to build a green economy.

It's going to be a big investment program and, combined with the inclusion policy that we've already put into practice, I think we're going to surprise IMF economic analysts again, who are going to be wrong every time they level down the perspective of economic growth in Brazil. Okay? I want you to write this down, so you can ask me about it later on, okay? I met with the director of the IMF, in Hiroshima, and as I greeted her I said: “Look, you’re going to make a mistake in assessing Brazil's economic growth. We will grow more.” And it will grow even more, because what was lacking in Brazil, what is lacking in Brazil are those that I consider the essential words for a government to work.

You have to be credible first. The President of the Republic has to have credibility among agents, businessmen, among the social agents of that country. Because when the president speaks, it is important that people believe that what he says will really happen. Then – after credibility – you have to guarantee stability. You have to have political stability, you have to guarantee legal stability, you have to guarantee social stability, which is extremely important, and you have to guarantee, you know, financial stability. And lastly, you have to have predictability. These three things combined are happening and that's why you're seeing the press full of good news to report on. We only hope that today the Copom takes the decision which it should have taken three meetings ago – to reduce the interest rate, because there is no explanation for the interest rate to continue rising. Let's see what’s going to happen.

But the rest you’re following. Unemployment is dropping, wages are rising. This year is going to end with 90% of the professional categories who make wage agreements having a real increase above inflation. In the past government it was the opposite. It was over 80%, with no real increase above inflation. The income distribution policies, you know, are happening. As money begins to circulate in the hands of millions of people, I think we can guarantee the success of the growth of the Brazilian economy – besides our own.

We’re going to have to be very capable of having projects that can attract foreign investment. Everyone who wins the election promises to bring in money from abroad. “I’m going to get money abroad;” so he goes on a trip to China. “I’m going to bring money from abroad;” so he goes on a trip to Saudi Arabia. “I’m going to bring money from abroad.” I think the money only comes if you have a project. If you have a project, if this project is consistent and is of interest to foreign investors, they’ll come over.

Just as there are Portuguese investing in Brazil, Spaniards investing in Brazil, Chinese investing in Brazil, and many other people investing in Brazil in a project that has consistency. Which is what will happen on the 11th, at the launch of the PAC.

So, from Brazil's point of view, we’ve got a certain peace of mind. We have to establish political agreements. I’m still going to do it, I didn't, but I will. You often follow the national press and many times, perhaps due to lack of information, it says: “Lula is going to talk to the Centrão, Lula is going to I-don't-know-what with the Centrão.” I don't talk to the Centrão. I talk to the political parties that legally exist in this country. Each party has a president, each party has a general secretary, each party has a leader in the House, each party has a leader in the Senate. It is with these leaders that I talk, and not with a bunch of people that you used to call Centrão. By the way, it’s important for you to know that I was in Brazil’s Constituent Assembly when the Centrão was established. The Centrão was established so that we would not continue advancing in social policies in the 1988 Constituent Assembly, because Mário Covas [former federal congressman] was the guy who was doing the systematization and we were advancing a lot. Then the Centrão was built to prevent people from continuing to progress – and every now and then they get together. From time to time they get together and form a block to vote on certain things. And that’s okay, that they get together, but we're going to try to build our agreement with the political parties.

The second thing is the issue of the Amazon, which Mauro [Vieira, Minister of Foreign Affairs] spoke about. I think that we’re going to treat the Amazon at a world level with the greatest seriousness that we want to give the discussion on the climate issue. Today the climate issue is no longer a small issue, it is no longer an ecologist’s issue alone, it is no longer an environmentalist’s issue alone. It's a question of who has a sense of intelligence and is seeing that things are changing in the world and that those who have responsibility will have to take on this responsibility.

Thank God our dear South America has eight Amazon countries. That’s very important. Even if France wanted to participate, it could participate because France has a piece of the Amazon, in French Guiana. I myself invited Macron [Emmanuel Macron, President of France]. France is the only country in Europe that borders Brazil. It should take advantage of this and transform itself into an Amazon country. And we are bringing the two Congos, as Minister Mauro said. The Belgian Congo and the Congo, the French Congo, Quinxassa and Brazzaville [capitals of the Congo], then, and Indonesia, whose prime minister is coming.

What do we want to do? We want to prepare, for the first time, a joint document by all the countries that have forests, so that we can arrive together at COP-28, in the United Arab Emirates and have a very serious discussion with rich countries – who, since 2009, have been promising to release US$ 100 billion to create a fund to help maintain forests and preserve biodiversity. And say that, if that money has been given, it’s been so dispersed that no one has noticed. Because no one is aware of having received 100 billion yet. And we’ll continue to demand it, because, to preserve the forest, you need to take into account that, in Brazil alone, 28 million people live in the Amazon region and that these people need to work, eat, get dressed, and have access to development. And then we need investment to create a green industry, a creative industry, something that can generate jobs without violating the local biodiversity or the ecosystem.

So I see this meeting as a very important meeting. It’s the first time, in 45 years, that there’s been a presidents’ meeting to discuss the Amazon. We want to get involved. And we’re setting up a Federal Police center in the state of Manaus, to try to cover the entire issue of the Amazon. We’re going to treat the fight against organized crime very seriously, the fight against drug trafficking. We will take care of our borders and we want to build partnerships with all countries. Because Brazil has almost 16,800 kilometers of dry borders, that's quite something. With Bolivia alone there’s an almost 3 thousand kilometer border. And you have to take care of it and so very competently. You’ll need the Armed Forces, the Federal Police, the state police. You’ll need the country's commitment to the issue of preservation.

Finally, there's the question of war. That is, unfortunately, the more the world needs peace, the less peace the world has. The information, which we don't have the exact numbers, but there is a number that is exaggeratedly strong to show the irresponsibility with which the issue of social inequality in the world is addressed. That is, according to FAO, there are 735 million people going hungry and, at the same time, the equivalent of US$ 2.224 trillion was spent in 2022 on weapons.

It’s a contradiction because, if this money were being used to fight hunger, it would certainly be enough to end hunger or generate job prospects, work, and development for those people who are in need around the world. It’s a pity that a continent like the European Union, a continent like Europe, with a European Union that is very consolidated from a democratic point of view, from the conquest of a welfare state, which has always worked as if it were the middle path, that is, it didn’t get too involved in things, but grew, developed. Nowadays, almost all countries are investing in weapons. For a matter, you know, that shouldn't have happened. This war, if it had been discussed in the UN Security Council, had it been taken seriously, and if the UN Security Council had behaved as a global governance body that respected the collective of the world’s countries, possibly there’d have been a conclusion that war was not necessary. Russia does not have to invade Ukraine. It's a war in which one doesn't know how many millions have already been spent there, how many thousands or millions have already died.

What we do know is that there are 8 million displaced people from Ukraine. Usually women and children. Something that could have been avoided. So, the world really doesn’t need war. Then, if you have any special questions about the war, Celso Amorim [chief adviser to the Special Advisory Office of the Presidency] is my special envoy for war affairs. He’s traveled to Russia, to Ukraine, to Saudi Arabia. So Brazil is on the list of countries that are trying to find a way to use the word peace. So far, we haven't heard from Zelensky [Volodymyr Zelensky, President of Ukraine] or from Putin [Vladimir Putin, President of Russia] a “let's stop, let’s negotiate” idea. For now, both are in the “I’m going to win, I’m going to win, I’m going to win” phase – and, meanwhile, people are dying. Shootings continue to happen and this is very bad for human development, especially for those most in need who need money for investments that generate quality of life for them.

Well, on top of all that, there’s the violence in Israel. It’s very sad, it's very sad, the people of Israel, you know, who love democracy, who like democracy, are on the street, are fighting, trying to defend Israel from becoming a religious authoritarian state. They’re trying to prevent the extreme right from ruling Israel. The right is already there – but the extreme right is more serious than the right. In a while, the extreme of the extreme of the extreme right will emerge. That is, the attacks in the city of Jenin are startling. The disrespect for the agreements that were made is startling. And the UN is weakened because it doesn’t make decisions.

The UN which had the political authority to create the State of Israel is no longer the UN of today, which is unable to avoid a blockade or make countries comply with a decision by the UN Security Council itself. Well, having said that, I wanted to tell you that Brazil will continue to try to find peace. We’re going to try alongside several other countries, to try to find a way – so that, when people get tired of the war, when they want some kind of warmth to stop the war, we’ll have to have a group of countries who are willing to discuss this with them, to present a solution. There has to be an agreement. For now, nobody wants an agreement. This is like a strike, you see, my friends. You’ve already participated in journalist strikes, some of them very unsuccessful, that is, you know that when we shout into the microphone “80% or nothing, 90% or nothing, 100% or nothing”, if we don't negotiate, we come back with nothing. So that’s how war is. People want to win. “I'm going to win, I'm going to win, I'm going to win.” There will come a time when people will realize that war is not the solution. The solution is peace. And after peace comes the rebuilding of what mankind built and was capable of destroying.

So much so that we have to build something – a bridge, a railroad –, and suddenly you destroy it yourself to stop someone from advancing and then you have to rebuild it again. So money that could be used to take care of those in need is used to rebuild things that had already been built and should not have been demolished. That said, my friends, I hope you have lots of good questions to ask.

I just want you to take the following into account: that when you ask the question, do so louder, louder. Because you know that, although I say I'm 70 years old, have the energy of a 30-year-old and I don't-know-what of a 20-year-old, my hearing is 21. So, I need you to speak louder, ok?

And you don't necessarily have to just ask me questions. If you want to, you can ask Mauro, Celso, and Pimenta [Paulo Pimenta, Minister of the Social Communication Secretariat of the Presidency] questions. They represent me very well at this table.

QUESTIONS

Journalist Anna Pelegrí | AFP Agency (France) — Hello, good morning, Mr President. Thanks for the invitation. I’d like to talk about what you were discussing before, about the Amazon and the Summit that will take place next week. Deforestation data for the first months of your mandate are very good – but, to achieve the goal of eradicating, of eliminating deforestation by 2030, Brazil will undoubtedly need international help. I would like to know if, at the Summit, you, the Amazon countries, are going to ask for greater involvement, greater funding from foreign countries. And I would also like to know how you’ll be able to combine this duty, this desire to put an end to deforestation and at the same time compete with agriculture, which is such an important sector.

President Lula — Doing everything you said is a challenge. The first thing we know is that there’s the responsibility to convince people, above all, to convince each country that it has autonomy over its Amazon, each country has economic interests over its Amazon, and each country thinks differently about the people who live in the Amazon. And what we want is to try to build a way of thinking about the Amazon that is united. Of thinking about the rainforest, about the fauna, about taking care of 13% of the world’s freshwater that Brazil harbors – so that we can convince the world that investing is cheap. If we succeed in preventing the rainforest from continuing to be destroyed. In Brazil, you know that we have serious problems with organized crime in the rainforest. You know that we need to value the indigenous issue a lot, because they will be part of the guardians we want to be able to preserve the forest. And what we also want to do is share research on the richness of Amazonian biodiversity with the world's science. In other words: this is immeasurable wealth. We still don't know what it is. We need to research the soil, the subsoil, every leaf that we can find, so that we can find out if we can develop an industrial policy for the pharmaceutical industry, for the cosmetics industry, here in our dear South America. That is, that can allow us to work without having to destroy. We’re going to be very tough on deforestation. Nobody, nobody in their right mind has the right to take a tree that is 300 years old and destroy it to make a chair, to make furniture, to make a table. That tree is a heritage belonging to humanity. It has no owner. The owner is the sovereignty of Brazil.

So, what we also want, we’re going to discuss with the business sectors that want to make the furniture industry. We want to discuss how to recover almost 40, 30 million acres of degraded lands, so that people can reforest them with what they understand is a quality tree to produce furniture. We want to create a new political awareness – and that's why I'm going to say something that I haven't discussed with the government yet: that is to try to take the climate issue to fundamental schools, fundamental education. The climate issue must be part of the curriculum of public schools in this country. We're going to bet on the fact that a 10-year-old, a 9-year-old, or an 8-year-old child can help raise the awareness of their fathers, their mothers, if they are ignorant and don't want to respect the logic of preservation. So this is a job that’s just starting. It won't be an easy job. It's not an easy job. It is a job with a lot of diversity. There must be many groups involved in this work.

Over there, just from the popular movement, we have approximately 5 thousand people participating. Then there will be everything you can imagine in terms of discussion. Everything. And we’re going to try – from the moment of extracting everything from people in the field of health, indigenous people, in the field of human rights –, we’re going to have to take all this and have the ability to create a document capable of being signed by eight presidents and of being taken to COP-28 in the United Arab Emirates, and becoming its main document on the climate issue. That's how we're going to work, and that's how we're going to try to produce, for the first time, an idea that the world needs: not just to admire the Amazon, but to help preserve and help people advance development in the Amazon.

Journalist Jack Nicas | The New York Times (United States) — Good morning, I'm Jack Nicas, correspondent for the New York Times. I have a question about the war in Ukraine. I know, you've already talked about this. But my question, specifically, is: what is Brazil doing to start peace talks? Have you made any progress in this field?

President Lula — The first thing we are doing is not accepting to participate in the war. This is the first attitude to build peace: not to want to participate in war. We've already talked with some presidents of other countries, very interesting ones, with India, we've talked with China, we've talked with South Africa, we've talked with Indonesia, we've talked with many countries here in Latin America, we've talked with African countries. Celso Amorim has already been, at my request, to Russia, to Ukraine, to Denmark and to Saudi Arabia. He is going to participate in a conference, in a videoconference today in Saudi Arabia, with several representatives from other countries, to discuss the issue of peace. And why is this important? It’s important because, when debating with people who think differently, who see the world differently, who see war differently, we start to find a common denominator for when we need to make peace. Which is important, and that is why we have agreed on the issue of a new world governance. It's just that this war should actually be under discussion at the UN. It should be under discussion in the UN Council members’ room. Permanent members should be discussing this. No. But it's the permanent members that make the war. When the United States invaded Iraq, it did not ask anyone for permission and invaded. When England and France invaded Libya, they didn't ask anyone. Russia, now, has not asked anyone. They are members of the Security Council, they are permanent members. They have the right to veto. They couldn't wage a war without taking into account that if they don't respect the body that was created in 1945, why do others have to respect it? So, Brazil's role is this: it is to try to build, alongside other countries, a peace proposal that can only be presented in the discussion when the two countries that are at war want this to be so. Otherwise it'll all be useless.

And I honestly think the time will come when peace will happen. And I hope it's by the decision of the two countries that are at war. I hope so. Because if this had been discussed earlier in the UN, if the discussion about the territory of Ukraine had been discussed earlier in the UN, possibly we would be at peace and not at war.

Journalist Xu Danna | China Media Group (China) — Mr. President, how are you? I'm Xu Danna from the China Media Group. I have a question about BRICS. What are your expectations for the summit which takes place this month in South Africa? And I would also like you to comment a little on how BRICS countries can stimulate world economic development and how the BRICS bank can contribute to stimulating policies to combat inequality. Thank you very much.

President Lula — What was the last question, my dear? How to fight inequality? I am very much looking forward to the BRICS meeting in South Africa. Firstly, because I haven't participated in a long time, it's the first one after so many years. Secondly – it seems to me that this has already been announced –, Russia is not going to participate. I don't know what has been prepared for Russia to participate, if there will be videoconferencing, if there won’t be. Maybe there will be a videoconference. Since the host is South Africa, many countries are invited. At this meeting we may possibly already decide, by consensus, about which new countries can join BRICS. I think it's extremely important for us to allow other countries that meet BRICS demands to join the bloc. From a global point of view, I think BRICS can play an exceptional role. Everyone knows that I support the idea that we may have our own currency to trade between countries. I have publicly said why Brazil needs the dollar to trade with China. We can do this in our own currencies. Why does Brazil need dollars to trade with Argentina? We can do this in our currencies – and every month the central banks, you know, can carry out the reckoning. It's not an easy thing to discuss – but look, we already have the euro, the alternative that the European Union created.

Why can’t the countries that represent more than half of humanity – if you imagine Brazil, India, China, Indonesia, these alone already represent more than half of humanity –, why can't we discuss this? Having a currency for doing business among ourselves. The second thing is: I think the BRICS bank has to be more effective and more generous than the IMF. That is, the bank exists to help save countries and not to help sink countries. Because that's what the IMF often does. In other words, you lend resources. I will not name any countries. Here in Brazil – you’re very young, only those with white hair know this –, but here in Brazil, up to 2003, 2002, there was a small IMF team that came here every year to inspect Brazilian accounts. Every year, a country the size of Brazil received a couple of economists from the IMF; they’d land at Galeão airport or in São Paulo and come here to take a look at Brazil's accounts, and Brazil owed them money. We ended this. First, we paid off the debt, loaned 15 billion to the IMF and made a reserve, at the time, of US$ 370 billion. So the BRICS, in my opinion – I am one country, but there are several others –, must help other countries to develop through adequate funding, not with a sword over their heads. I hope that, if we manage to formulate this new bank with this new mentality, we can re-educate Bretton Woods institutions to behave differently concerning funding for development.

If you take the African continent, you will see something that is quite absurd. Almost every African continent was self-sufficient in food production. When they were colonized, they became dependent because the colonizers were forced to send their surpluses to African countries and they reduced production. Today they all need help. The second thing is that there is a debt – including all African countries, if my memory serves me correctly – of 700-something billion dollars. But the few reserves these countries have are in rich countries. They receive nothing in terms of interest and pay a fortune for the money they borrow. It’s the same case as in Brazil. Look: we have 340 billion deposited in the US, in dollars. The interest we receive is very little. But when we borrow money, the interest we pay is very high. So why isn't there a differentiated policy so these rich countries may waive their debt as long as that money is invested in the development of that country? In social development, economic development. It would be something new, because every economist says: “Because there are trillions and trillions of dollars flying around the world, there are trillions and trillions passing through the Atlantic.” Why is this money not used to improve the planet, helping human beings? If we don't take care of them, in many places they are becoming one of the most abused animals at this time. Because there are 735 million hungry people, and other millions of people surviving in tents because of wars, because of unemployment. How can one explain that 33 million people are going hungry in a country like Brazil, that is the third largest producer of food on Planet Earth, the largest producer of animal protein on Planet Earth? This can’t be explained. So we’re going to engage in a very serious effort to try to fight the way economic policies are being carried out in the world. And so I repeat: we need a new world governance.

And finally, the issue of inequality. I had gone to Rome to talk to Pope Francis before the pandemic; I wanted to campaign against inequality. I went to the World Council of Churches, but when I returned the pandemic hit. Then I stayed at home for two years and couldn't advance the campaign. This year, as president, I went back to Rome, I went to talk to Pope Francis. And we need to be able to make humanity feel outraged about inequality. It's not normal that we peacefully accept going to tranquil sleep every night knowing that there are millions of children who don't have a glass of milk to drink before going to bed. Who don't have a bun to eat when they get up. And we, instead of spending money investing in this, we invest in weapons. We spend money on bombs – which don't produce anything. So the fight against inequality is a fight that I will engage in. Now, as president, I have more space, more authority, and I will engage. Because my dream is to make society feel outraged about hunger. Outraged. Because, you see, inequality is racial, inequality is economic, inequality is educational, inequality is in health, inequality is in transportation, inequality is in housing, you know. There is an inequality that is visible in the face of all of us. How do we combat this? So this is a task that I want to take on as president. This will be part of my speech at the UN, this will be part of my speech at BRICS, this will be part of my speech at the G-20 – so, when I arrive, people will say: “Here comes the bore.” But I'm going to raise this idea, because it's not normal for us to treat inequality as normal. What is normal is for us to be outraged about the unfair distribution of wealth, you know, across the planet. So I'm going to dedicate myself a lot. A lot. I hope to count on comrade Xi Jinping [President of China] in this fight, I hope to count on Biden [Joe Biden, President of the United States], I hope to count on European leaders. Because it's not a fight for one country or one region, it's a fight for all of us. That's why I'm engaged in it until the end of my mandate and even after my mandate.

Journalist Jens Glüsing | Der Spiegel Magazine (Germany) — Good morning, Jens Glüsing. Mr. President, about the war as well. Will there be any peace initiative at the BRICS Summit? And how do you evaluate the latest initiative by Saudi Arabia, which it seems that Russia will not participate in? And the last question: President Zelensky would like to meet with you in Ukraine or here in Brazil – will there be an invitation for him? Is that in the plans?

President Lula — Let me say something to you, my friends. When there is a meeting with heads of State, we cannot talk to people that we think we ought to talk to. Talk to the heads of state. I think it is extremely important for Saudi Arabia to join BRICS. I think it's extremely important for the United Arab Emirates to join BRICS, and Argentina. I obviously don't decide about this by myself: all the countries have to decide this together. I think it's very important. I hope that one day people will realize that the way of discussing politics in the G7 is outdated. It is necessary to be open. In fact, the G7 shouldn't even exist after the creation of the G20. It’s true. Because it's the same people. The same people participate in the G7, and participate in the G20, and I don't know why? There’s a continuity. But people have created a club and want to join and I'm not the one who is going to get in the way of this. But we want to make the BRICS very strong, very strong politically, very strong financially – and create a forum for deliberation to help developing countries, to help African countries, Latin American countries, Asian countries, Caribbean countries. That's why we want to create a bank, we want it to be strong, we want it to be inclusive. So we’re going to discuss the entry of new countries – and I think that, if they comply with the rules that we’re establishing, we will accept their entry.

Journalist Jens Glüsing | Der Spiegel magazine (Germany) — The question was about the war.

President Lula — I thought it was important. Celso was invited to a meeting. I don't know what Saudi Arabia's proposal is, but certainly Celso can talk a little. Celso is going to attend every meeting he is invited to.

Journalist Pablo Giuliano | Telam Correspondent in Brazil (Argentina) — Mr. President, good morning. My question has to do with Argentina, Brazil’s main partner in the region. It is entering an electoral process, in the midst of unprecedented movements, after receiving an unprecedented credit from the IMF, and now paying part of it with yuans. And I would like to know if this type of movement means anything to you, since you mentioned that the BRICS bank has to be more generous than the IMF? So I would like to know what is the situation in Brazil vis-à-vis its main regional partner, Argentina, at this moment, and the expectations regarding the electoral process.

President Lula — About the election I prefer to remain silent. I think the following: Brazil does not want to grow by itself. We want to grow with our neighbors growing alongside us. That's why, when we talk about development, and we talk a lot about South America, Mercosur, it's because we think there has to be a growth that involves all countries. I sometimes get worried, trying to understand how a country as important as Argentina, once the fifth largest economy in the world, gets to the economic situation, you know, that it is facing today. All this is largely due to a debt that was contracted by another government and which the current government has been left to pay. And the IMF, just to give you an idea, the IMF should be a little patient, and know the drought situation in Argentina: 25% of Argentina's agricultural production was practically decimated due to the drought. Therefore, Argentina failed to sell a few billion dollars. And the IMF could take this into account and not have a sword over the head of the president of Argentina. Honestly, everything I could do in terms of efforts, contacts, phone calls, meetings to try to help Argentina, I tried. From calling XI Jinping, from talking to the bank, from asking Dilma to help. We tried to do what was possible within the legal framework that exists today in financial institutions. Because the rules were established a long time ago and we need to change certain rules.

I think the only thing I can tell you about the elections is that I keep praying to God that democracy prevails in Argentina. May democracy win, may a candidate win who has broader perspectives when talking about social inclusion, about development, and not a candidate who thinks that everything that is invested in public policies is a waste. And a candidate who thinks that solving Argentina's problem is privatizing public companies. I am sincerely rooting for this, because Argentina is a privileged partner of Brazil. Brazil has a lot, a lot, a lot, to gain from the growth of Argentina. We want to be united, we want to have joint companies, we want to build partnerships, because that way we will grow by sharing our growth with a country the size of Argentina. Therefore, I hope that democracy wins in Argentina and that will make me happy in itself.

Journalist Katy Warson | BBC News (UK) — Back to the Amazon: the presidents who will gather next week won’t be in power in 20 years’ time. The presidents who gather in Belém next week will not be in power in 20 years’ time. So how can we build a more sustainable policy in the long term when politics are so divided in the region, in the world, to help Amazon residents towards a more positive future beyond politics?

President Lula — Look, I often hear statements by presidents thinking about the logic of their own countries, thinking about their own realities. This meeting is the first in 45 years since the Amazon Treaty was created. It is the first meeting between presidents of countries that will jointly discuss the issue of the Amazon. Therefore, at this meeting I have great expectations that, for the first time, we will have a common policy for action in the Amazon. A common policy for economic development, taking into account the reality of each country; a policy to combat organized crime and drug trafficking; a policy to preserve our borders. I'm very optimistic. I think the world needs to look at this Belém meeting as the most important milestone ever made to discuss the climate issue. Because I've already participated in several meetings; many times they talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, a document is approved and nothing happens after the document. Who complied with the Paris Agreement? Who complied with the Copenhagen Agreement? Who complied with the Kyoto Protocol? No one. Because you make decisions at an international level, but the national states are the ones who have to consolidate them. And many times national states do not decide and things do not happen.

So this meeting is the first big opportunity for us to show the world: if we want to, we can do it. If we have political will and common sense, we can do it. That's what we want to show, and you already know that Brazil will fulfill what was promised. We’re going to reach zero deforestation in the Amazon by 2030. Write that down and save it to ask me in the future – because I will be alive, because I will live to be 120 years old. So keep it, you know, because we're going to prove that it's possible to avoid deforestation. To this end we don’t need to keep shouting from Brasilia. We need to summon the mayors of Amazon states in each country, to have a shared conversation with them and help them. Instead of banning things, we have to offer help, including financial help, so that the mayors are the first citizens to be concerned about deforestation, about wildfires. That's why I'm very optimistic. Okay? I'm optimistic. We’re back to govern Brazil to try to make a difference in the things we had already done. That’s what it’s all about.

Journalist Miguel Mâncio | Agência Lusa (Portugal) — Good morning, Miguel Mâncio from Agência Lusa. Your next intercontinental trip will be to Africa. To South Africa, to Angola and to São Tomé. What are your ambitions and agenda for Portuguese-speaking countries in Africa, and for Africa as a continent?

President Lula — First, I plan to visit many African countries. It's just that we’ve just arrived at the presidency, we had a lot to do internally. I should have gone to Angola already, but I couldn't go. But now, as well as to South Africa, I'm going to visit Angola and São Tomé and Príncipe. The other day I visited Cape Verde briefly, and I intend to make many trips to the African continent. And, if I’m invited, I will participate in the meeting of the African Union, which will take place in Addis Ababa [capital of Ethiopia], I think in January or February.

Brazil will once again try to help in whatever way possible with technology transfer. With the increase in the offer and vacancies in universities for Africans to study here in Brazil; with the possibility of helping the production of medicine or improving the antiretroviral factory which we built in Mozambique; trying to create open universities in some African countries, in partnership with Brazilian universities. All of this is part of my commitment to the African continent. And as the African continent is a continent that, for better or worse, has been growing above the average of other countries, I think that the world has to invest there once again. You know, in things that Africa needs. In 2012 and 2013, Africa made a plan; the African Union produced an investment plan called IFAD, and it provided for an investment of US$ 360 billion. I went to Addis Ababa to talk to the president, Madame Zuma, and proposed that we hold a meeting in Addis Ababa of all the investment banks in the world; that we could summon all the world’s biggest infrastructure businesspeople. I promised to take the Development Bank of Brazil and other development banks so that they would make an offer of projects to solve the problems that are crucial – and you know that one of the biggest problems in Africa is energy. Now, it is a big problem, but if there is investment and solar farms can be built, the problem can be solved. And, who knows, Africa can produce green hydrogen, ethanol, biodiesel. There’s an entire continent, a territory with an extraordinary savannah with the same production capacity as the Brazilian Cerrado.

Unfortunately, when I was president I put Embrapa in Ghana. But then came the blow and they took Embrapa out of Ghana. We’re going to try to takeg Embrapa back to the African continent so that it can help Africa to have the same opportunities for development that Brazil had. That's what we want to do with Africa.

Journalist Luciana Magalhães | The Wall Street Journal (United States) — Hello, Mr. President. Hello ministers. I’m Luciana Magalhães. I'm a correspondent for The Wall Street Journal. Thank you very much for the invite. Good morning to everyone. I want to talk about economics. You spoke briefly about the Central Bank issue. Copom will meet today. The expectation is for an 0.25% interest rate reduction. I would like to know how important this beginning of an interest rate reduction cycle is to Brazil, and if you expect a more aggressive drop than today’s 0.25%. Thank you very much.

President Lula — There is a concrete fact. In Brazil, today, inflation is dropping and interest rates are rising. When inflation drops and interest doesn’t, this means that the interest rate is increasing – and Brazil now has the highest real interest rate in the world. Inexplicably. For a country the size of Brazil, with inflation of 4%, interest rates don't need to be as high as they are. I was a factory worker, I faced inflation of 80% per month. We have 4% per year, or 3.9 per year. That is, with 4% inflation per year, you can keep money under your mattress. It turns out that this young man who is at the Central Bank, it seems to me that, I don't know what he is an expert at, but he doesn't understand Brazil and he doesn't understand the people. He only has one logic. I don't know who he's serving, I don't know, honestly I don't know. It is not Brazil’s interests. Neither is this the logic by which the autonomy of the Central Bank was approved. Because if you take the law that approved autonomy, the law says that he has to be concerned with inflation, with economic growth and job creation. So I'm waiting, because who nominated him was the Senate, and he can only leave when his term ends or when the Senate removes him. Let's wait. Now, let me tell you something. We're going to keep growing anyway. This will be the pleasant surprise. We're going to keep growing anyway. That's why I'm calm.

Journalist Rihito Karube | The Asahi Shimbun (Japan) — Thank you very much, Mr. President. My name is Rihito Karube. I wanted to ask you about the visa situation concerning people who come from the United States, Canada, Australia and Japan. Do you have any intention of withdrawing visas for citizens of Japan or any other country?

President Lula — I will pass the floor to the Minister of Foreign Affairs to discuss this matter.

Minister Mauro Vieira — The visa system was reestablished because it had been granted in the previous government without a legal requirement, which is reciprocity. It will be reinstated with the United States, with Canada and with Australia. With Japan, when we started talking with the Japanese government about the reinstatement of the visa, it was possible, a space for negotiation was opened and an agreement was made that provides for the exemption of the visa and, when necessary, it will be an electronic visa. But Japan is not included in the three countries, in the same way that Mexico is not included, we have just negotiated an understanding with them. Thanks.

President Lula — Just a note to you, especially those who live in Rio de Janeiro, on August 11, we’re going to launch the PAC in Rio. Anyone who is interested in the Brazilian economy or who wants to understand what is going to happen, I would like to invite you to the Municipal Theater. At 10 AM, at Rio’s Municipal Theater, okay?

Anyway, thank you. Sorry we couldn't answer everyone, but this won't be the last interview. In another, those who didn't ask a question today will ask a question next time. And those who asked questions will be silent. I was going to ask you a question, but I don't know if I should ask. I'll choose someone to ask. Our friend from Der Spiegel, from Germany. Tell me something, dear fellow. Why this profound silence regarding the arrest of our comrade Assange [Julian Assange, activist who founded WikiLeaks], who is in England? This guy made a very serious complaint about espionage, to Angela Merkel [former Chancellor of Germany], and Dilma Rousseff [former president of Brazil]. So this citizen is in prison. And instead of being treated like a hero, he's treated like a pariah. He's in jail, nobody talks about it. The US is asking for his extradition. Why this behavior towards Assange?

Journalist Jens Glüsing | Der Spiegel Magazine (Germany) — I can't answer for the government, but Der Spiegel Magazine published a lot of stories. We even visited Assange in London when he was at the Ecuadorian embassy in London. And I went to Ecuador, because there was also a friend of his in prison. This is a scandal. I fully agree with the President on this issue.

President Lula — But don't you think it’s strange?

Journalist Jens Glüsing | Der Spiegel Magazine (Germany) — I don't know if there is anything agreed upon between the governments on this issue. The truth is that, at this moment, in Europe, the issue of war and other issues get superimposed on many topics that should deserve a lot of attention as well.

President Lula — Thank you.