Interview granted by Brazil’s President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva during a press conference after the G20 Summit in India

I don't know if you want to start by asking questions — or should I tell you about some things? Well, it’s always very gratifying to take part in a meeting as important as this G20 Summit. I was one of the founder members of the G20 and took part in its first three meetings. After that, I did not take part in the meeting for the following 13 years, but now I am here once again. I think there is progress in [inaudible] that the world [inaudible] has a much greater chance to find solutions to problems than to try to agree [inaudible].

It doesn’t seem like much, but G20 countries have signed a document stating that the best way to find a solution to the conflict between Russia and Ukraine is to try to work towards peace, you know, according to the documents and the UN Charter. This is something we’ve been defending for some time, and I think it is the only path. I think everyone is becoming aware that this war is already, you know, tiring humanity, it’s already tiring people, and even more so Ukrainian and Russian refugees, that is – and there are victims that we will not be able to bring back.

Therefore, getting the entire European Union to sign a document, putting peace on the agenda, is an important step forward.

Another important step forward, to me, is the commitment we made yesterday with Minister Modi [Narendra Modi, from India] and President Biden [Joe Biden, USA], plus Indonesia, plus Argentina, concerning the Global Biofuel Alliance. Everyone knows the role Brazil plays in this. Everyone knows that Brazil has an almost 50-year tradition in ethanol production. Everyone knows what we’ve tried to do to get the world to adopt biofuels as an alternative to oil. This has been going on for a long time, before any kind of oil crisis – and it’s because we think the world needs to be depolluted. The president of UNICA Evandro Gussi is here, and he must be Brazil’s happiest citizen today, following the decision that was made yesterday, because this is something we’ve been fighting for.

I remember that, in 2008, the European Union said it was going to add 10% of ethanol to gasoline by 2020, but that didn’t happen. I remember that even Japan said it was going to add 3% of ethanol to gasoline, but that didn’t happen either. We continue to improve our ethanol production. Brazil has extraordinary competence regarding biofuels – and we think that this initiative by Modi, Biden, Lula, and Argentina is very important for our future.

The world is finally realizing that biofuels can solve the big problem of greenhouse gas emissions, you know, caused by petroleum products.

Moreover, it's a great responsibility for Brazil to host the G20 Summit next year. Everyone knows that we will put inequality at the core issue of our discussion. We must once and for all try to take inequality into account, and to create a certain indignation among leaders regarding it. Gender inequality, race inequality, education inequality, healthcare inequality, food inequality. In other words: there’s a lot of inequality in the world. Few have a lot and many have very little. There has to be an understanding that the world must be more balanced in its distribution of the wealth it produces, so that we don't have to go to sleep every day knowing that 750 million people are going hungry. This is very important, and there is a lot of sensitivity regarding this fact.

Another thing we will put on the agenda is energy transition. Brazil has extraordinary potential for clean energy production. Today, almost 90% of our electrical energy is completely clean. Concerning our overall energy, we have 50% compared to the rest of the world’s 15%.

So, concerning fuels and clean energy, Brazil has a lot to teach other countries and, thus, we want to share what we are capable of producing – so that other countries may also produce; so that we may form associations and get our companies to join their companies; and so that we may clean up the planet through clean fuel. We have a lot of experience and a lot of technology in this field.

And another very important issue we’re going to discuss is reforming multilateral institutions. In other words, the World Bank needs, you know, a change – that is, developing countries must be able to run the bank. We have tried to propose changes to the IMF since our first meeting, but changes have been extremely small and do not advance. We will also want to discuss our permanent membership in the UN Security Council – that it is necessary to change the geography that is established there, dating back to 1945, and replace it with a geography of 2024, which is the year the discussion will take place in Brazil.

It is a lot of responsibility to organize an event like this. Here, you saw the structure that needs to be set up to receive this amount of people. But I’m sure Brazil will hold a wonderful G20 and make people proud.

Well, I must also say that I regret two serious things that just happened: the cyclone that hit Rio Grande do Sul – so far, 41 people have died and several are missing; and the 2 thousand people who have died in Morocco. This earthquake also doesn’t have much of an explanation other than climate change, other than what we are doing to the planet. That said, I am completely available to you for questions. Please don’t all get up at once or people may be left out.

JOURNALIST MARCOS UCHÔA (EBC) — Good morning, Mr President, Marcos Uchôa here, from EBC. One of the things you’ve been talking about is inequality, and in the past there was a lot of talk about poverty. Talking about poverty, in a way, was easy, right? Rich countries’ stance was to give aid; to show a charitable side. Inequality, on the other hand, is uncomfortable, since it means talking about the rich, about them having to dig into their pockets, so to speak, and change their attitude regarding this division. But talking about inequality requires them to accept that they are not acting very well in regard to the planet as a whole, to society as a whole, in general. How can the rich world be convinced to change the rules of the game?

PRESIDENT LULA: I think it’s not about convincing the rich world. We have to convince all of humanity that it is not possible to live with this inequality. In a world in which we have genetic knowledge, scientific and technological knowledge to produce food for all of humanity, what is the explanation for 750 million people going hungry? Obviously it’s the lack of money to buy. Obviously it’s the lack of money. This is why I’m obsessed about employment – because employment is the most correct way of distributing income in a fair way, with citizens earning what they are capable of producing with their own sweat, you know? With their personal effort. This is the fairest way. At the same time, however, we must share the growth of the economy. When the GDP has a 10% increase, who gets that 10% increase? If it increases 3%, who does it end up with? We need to start distributing some of this growth so that people understand that the world will become less violent. There will be less crime, there will be much less organized crime, less infant mortality, less illiteracy, fewer people living on the streets. It’s simple to understand. When you start to get a little money into everyone’s hands, many things that are today considered normal disappear. We’ve already done this in Brazil. There were no longer children begging on the streets in Brazil. There were no longer children at traffic lights asking for money, asking for food. But it’s back. So, I’m convinced it’s a process of convincing others. In my conversation with Pope Francis we discussed this a lot. One has to feel outrage, Uchôa. Everyone has to be outraged by this. Every night we have to think “okay, it's no punishment for me to have something to eat, to have something to eat for breakfast, to have something to eat for lunch, but what can I do for someone who’s got nothing?” Nothing will happen if we don’t become outraged. So we’ll only change this when we create political awareness in society that this is wrong. Few people have a lot of money. Very few people. Guys spending a fortune trying to take a trip to the Moon to see if they can find a place to live and build a condo there, while most people are looking for condos in the gutters of big cities. It’s not correct. It’s a difficult debate, but it’s one we must have. When I said the other day, at the BRICS meeting, that it was necessary to re-discuss the debt of African countries, it was because Africans owe almost 800 billion dollars. These countries need to carry out infrastructure work and there’s no money.

Now, it means transforming part of this debt into infrastructure work. Is this a hard thing to do? Yes, it’s hard. Is it utopia? It's utopia. But if you don't have a little dream, if you don't have a little hope, if you don't start discussing things that seem impossible… you know? I honestly thought we weren't going to make the agreement we made yesterday, the Biden, Modi, Lula, Argentina initiative to launch a biofuel program in the world. This is extremely important for Brazil. These trips I've made, and one that I'm going to make next week, going to the G77 in Cuba, and from there I'm going to the US, then I have another meeting with the African Union, possibly in early January… Then Brazil came back to the world, right? That was my first task: to put Brazil back into international geopolitics, that is, shouting out to everyone: “Hey, guys, Brazil’s here. Brazil exists. Brazil speaks out. Brazil thinks.” You know? This is what we’re doing here and I’m very, very, very proud to see the affection with which people treat Brazil. Celso [Amorim, former Minister of Foreign Affairs of Brazil] has been at Itamaraty for 60 years; Mauro [Vieira, Minister of Foreign Affairs of Brazil] has been there for around 10, but I think that, at no point in their history, did they see a world as much in need of Brazil as it is now. OK? People are saying, you know, “it's good that Brazil came back, because Brazil was missing in the world’ political discussions.”

So we came back to this, putting Brazil back in international geopolitics, saying what we want, how we want them, what we want them for, on equal terms with everyone else. I said to the European Commission and to Macron [Emmanuel Macron, president of France]: “I want to make this agreement while I am president of Mercosur.” We received an additional letter, you know? This additional letter was rejected by us because it said it would impose sanctions on Brazil or Mercosur if we did not comply with certain environmental issues. We do not accept threats of sanctions, and we do not accept the idea of government purchases. Government purchasing is an instrument of industrial policy for each country. It was like that in the US, it was like that in Germany and it will be like that in Brazil. Right? So Brazil will use government purchases to encourage small and medium Brazilian entrepreneurs, and this is the least that is expected from a government that wants to reindustrialize its country. You know that Brazil’s industrial GDP was once almost 30%. It dropped to 11%, and we want to go back to being a country that exports things – but, above all, that exports manufactured goods, which add value, which create more quality employment. And Brazil is in need of this like no one else. So I said I want to make the agreement; I want to have a meeting where the presidents are present to decide.

Right? And say: “Do you want this or not?” We've wanted this for 22 years. Twenty two years. I always see, in certain sectors of the press… They always try to convey the idea that it’s Brazil that doesn't want the agreement, that it's Argentina that doesn't want it, that it's Mercosur that doesn't want it. No, we do want it. We want it and we need it. But we want to be treated on equal terms. Trade agreement is a two-way street. I buy and I sell. I value mine and they value theirs. We have to reach a balance. In my opinion, we have to reach an agreement in the next few months. Either yes or no. Either we make an agreement or we stop discussing one, because after 22 years no one believes in it anymore. So that's it. That's why I think these meetings are extremely important. Now for the second question.

JOURNALIST KUMAR KUNAL (India Today) — Mr President, i'm from India's India Today newspaper. I want to ask my question in English. Mr President, now that the G20 presidency is in your hands – and that the G20 Summit which just took place in India has been considered very successful –, is there any pressure on your presidency to be as successful as India was? My second question is: two important presidents, China’s and Russia’s, did not come to this G20 meeting. How, then, are you working to take these two presidents who did not come here to Rio de Janeiro in 2024?

PRESIDENT LULA: First of all, I want to congratulate India because it carried out an exceptionally well-organized summit, and we were treated very kindly by the people of India. I think that, from the people’s point of view, Brazil will be equal to India. Brazil will be happy, Brazil will treat everyone very well. Brazil is capable of hosting an event like this with great ease, a well-organized event, because we must take care of the quality of the discussions. It will be the first event in which women are equally empowered to participate in the group. We’re going to hold a lot of discussions; possibly more even than India. We want to use several Brazilian cities to hold as many G20 events as possible. To try to make the G20 popular. In other words, for society to speak out, for society to participate, so that we can, at the end, present a more participatory G20, a more democratic G20.

Well, I don't know the reason why Xi Jinping [president of the People's Republic of China] didn't come, and I don't know the reason why Putin [Vladimir Putin, president of Russia] didn't come. Putin has an explanation: because of the war, or because of the process, I don't know which. But obviously we are going to hold our summit and they will be invited – and I hope they will participate. We'll see what happens between now and then, and I'm actually hoping that by then there won't be any more war. I'm hoping that, when we open the G20 in Brazil, the war will have ended and everything will have gone back to normal. That the Ukrainian people will have gone back to their homes. That the process of rebuilding what was destroyed will have begun. That food production will have gone back to normal. That fertilizer sales will have gone back to normal, you know? That's what I want. So there's still a year to go. Not a year: there's a year and two months to go, because Brazil will only truly assume the presidency from November onwards. I hope that, when we hold this meeting in Brazil, everyone who makes up the G20, now the G21 with the African Union, will attend, and we will also invite other countries to participate. I think it will be a great event, but we will only know if they will participate when the time is closer.

JOURNALIST SÉRGIO UTSCH (SBT) — Good morning, Mr President. Sergio Utsch, from SBT. Naturally, I'll ask my question in Portuguese. I wanted to ask you about your statement in an interview to Indian TV about Putin, and about the International Criminal Court. We were left with the impression that the Brazilian government intends to disrespect an agreement of which it is a signatory. A court to which it belongs. What did you mean, exactly? There was also the impression that you sometimes present a very exaggerated defense of a leader who is increasingly authoritarian, who invaded a neighboring country, right? It was not the first time. What did you mean when you said that, exactly? Do you advocate reform of the International Criminal Court? Do you intend to support this disrespect, perhaps, of the court, by inviting Vladimir Putin and preventing him from being arrested? How would that happen?

PRESIDENT LULA: I don't know. I don't know if it is the ICC, or the Brazilian judiciary that will arrest him. This is for the courts to decide, not the government nor the parliament. I actually want to study this ICC issue, because the US is not a signatory. Russia is not a signatory. So I want to know why Brazil became a signatory to a court that the US does not accept. Because we are inferior and we have to accept things, you know? Now, the decision is up to the judiciary, and Brazil’s judiciary system works perfectly well. We’ll have to see if things happen when they have to happen. This has already happened in South Africa. It may have happened here too. I don't even know if India is a signatory. India is also not a signatory. Right? So it's absurd. Emerging countries are signatories to something that harms them. I'm going to give it some serious thought. But, in any case, the courts are the ones that make the decision. If Putin decides to join (next year’s summit), it is the judiciary's power to decide (on a possible arrest) and not my government or the National Congress’. I hope that the war will be over, that the court will reconsider its position so that we can go back to normality.

JOURNALIST SÉRGIO UTSCH (SBT) — Would you withdraw Brazil from the ICC?

PRESIDENT LULA: I don't know. I'm just saying I'm going to study the issue. I want to know why we signed up. India didn't, China didn't, India didn't, the US didn't, Russia didn't – and I'll find out why Brazil did.

JOURNALIST SUHASINI HAIDAR (The Hindu) — Well, Suhasini from The Hindu newspaper. I will ask my question in English. You talked about the idea that you will put Brazil back on the geopolitical map. Indian negotiators have thanked Brazil, among other countries, for their help in the G20 joint declaration. Can you explain how much is at stake for Brazil as the next host of the G20, if there was any agreement regarding Ukraine in the G20? How exactly did Brazil help with this? Another short question too. India reported spending approximately USD 3.4 million on its G20. Does Brazil have any idea how much budget it will have to spend on the G20 summit next year?

PRESIDENT LULA: Look, I have no idea how much it will cost Brazil. I saw an article the other day that said that the amount of money planned for the G20 in Brazil is less than what was invested here in India, and less than what was invested in Argentina or elsewhere. But it is important that you ask a slightly different question: did India spend or did India invest? What will be the returns of this G20 for Indian business? Because I think it was an extraordinary investment. The number of bilateral meetings that Prime Minister Modi has held. The number of heads of state who came here. The number of signed agreements. I just mentioned one with Brazil. This biofuel initiative is an extraordinary thing. In other words, almost 3 billion human beings are involved. Just imagine if we decided to double today’s ethanol production by 2030.

What will happen in the world? So it's important to, instead of saying that India spent almost 300 million dollars, to say that India invested three hundred million dollars to hold an extraordinary event here. Let me tell you something: I remember that once I went to the United Arab Emirates and that we held a shoe fair. And I remember that a São Paulo newspaper published an article about how much Lula had spent – maybe 50 thousand dollars – to hold a shoe fair. What it didn't say is that we sold 250 million dollars. Right? So I see investment in the G20 as an extraordinary investment. The number of heads of state going to Brazil, the number of possible bilateral meetings, not only between the country hosting the event, but all other countries. So I think Brazil will spend whatever is necessary for a good event. It is not the first event that we’ve held in Brazil – we’ve already organized a World Cup, the Olympic Games, the Panamerican Championship, Rio-92… in other words, Brazil has held many events and they were all very well-organized. This will happen again and we will have a good event. And you, as a journalist, if you go to Brazil, you will realize that there you will be treated very affectionately by Brazilians.

JOURNALIST SUHASINI HAIDAR (The Hindu) — Thank you so much for your answer. My first question is how did Brazil help with the G20 joint declaration? What was at stake for Brazil to return to geopolitics?

PRESIDENT LULA: I think what helped was our capacity to [inaudible]. Ambassador Maurício, who was here negotiating, is a very competent fellow; he knew what the government’s thoughts were and he quite simply stated, at the meeting, that we were going to come here and that it was important that we reach an agreement that could include everyone. I am very happy that he managed to convince our European friends to have a sensible opinion on the issue of peace.

JOURNALIST SIMONE IGLESIAS (BLOOMBERG) — Good morning, Mr President. Simone Iglesias from the Bloomberg agency. In the BRICS meeting, during the press conference you gave here, or rather, in a press conference in which you spoke to us in South Africa, at the end of the BRICS meeting, you remembered how Brazil was the third world,and that now we call it Global South, within the context of expansion, including BRICS. We came to the G20 almost without an agreement, a document, a solution – and everything worked out. In that press conference you spoke about the superiority of BRICS, how much more they can do today, in GDP purchasing power, than even the G7, in fact. Was the superiority that you referred to at the BRICS meeting imposed here, and did it make the difference in reaching an agreement and in us having a better organized G20 summit in Brazil in terms of the war in Ukraine? Thank you.

PRESIDENT LULA: Look, the G20 is the strongest group and has a very big purpose: to discuss economy and the consequences of economic policies. What is important is that all BRICS countries are part of the G20. And all G7 countries are part of the G20. So it's a meeting point, right? Let's understand it this way: the G20 is the meeting point between the BRICS and the G7. Everyone who met at G7 was there, everyone who met at BRICS was there. So this is how it will be, and it’s very important, because I think the natural tendency is for us to move forward. I made a commitment to producing material showing what we have done from the first G20 up to now, when the summit begins in Brazil. Did we advance? Has there been any progress? If there was no progress, why not? Because the things that we wanted to change in the multilateral issue have changed very little. The IMF made almost no progress. The World Bank has made almost no progress. And we need to have more development banks, hence the importance of BRICS; we need to have more financing banks so that developing countries have a chance to grow. So I think we will reach an agreement and we will work together; the differences will remain outside. We’ll always bring to the debate whatever is convergent between all of us. It's a forum where no one wins over anyone, there's no voting. It is a forum where either we build a consensus or there is no final document. It is very important that we go to a meeting where everyone knows that – even though they may fight to the limit of their strength – to have a final document, a reasonable photograph, everyone has to give a little. And when everyone gives a little, we build a document that is possible – such as the document that was approved yesterday.

JOURNALIST DEVIRUPA MITRA (The Wire) — Good morning, Mr. President. My name is Devirupa and I am a journalist here in India. I'm speaking in English and I have a very brief question for you. The African Union has been brought in as a permanent member of the G20. Do you think the role of other regional groups – such as Celac – could be to become a permanent member of G20 in the future?

PRESIDENT LULA: See, in the future anything can happen. Anything can happen. Concerning Celac, Mexico is already in G20; Brazil is already in G20; and Argentina is already in G20. So we are already three from Celac in G20. There are two from Unasur who are in G20. The natural tendency is for us to incorporate according to countries’ representativeness. The African Union is a very strong organization. It represents 54 countries – and it is extremely important that it is included, perhaps not only as the African Union, but, who knows, in the future, through other African countries. Perhaps we will incorporate other Latin American countries. Things happen and we move forward. Presidents get changed. Erdoğan and I [Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, president of Turkey] are the only ones who have been here since the beginning. Despite my 13 years of absence, I was one of the founders and so was he – and we came back. I think the presidents are changing and they are making decisions according to the political moment. Five years from now, other presidents will be participating in this event and they may make decisions that are different from ours now. What is important is that that person knows that he or she needs a forum to solve the most serious problems. Everyone knows the climate is a very serious thing, that the planet is at risk and that human beings will be the only animal in the world to destroy their own planet. Through incompetence, bad faith. So what do we have to do? Take action. Brazil has already made a commitment to zero deforestation in the Amazon by 2030; we are going to face organized crime in the Amazon; we are going to face miners; we are going to face loggers. We are going to launch a policy to recover degraded lands – almost 30 million hectares where you can plant whatever you want and cut it down whenever you want. No one needs to harm nature to survive anymore. There are ways for us to do things without having to destroy what exists. So Brazil is taking the initiative. We held the meeting with South American countries; we’re going to do the same with the Congo basin, with Indonesia – and we are going to arrive at COP28 in the United Arab Emirates with a very correct position concerning preserving nature and rainforests. We want to prove that a standing rainforest can be more profitable than cutting down trees to plant something. That’s not necessary.

JOURNALIST MARIA CRISTINA FERNANDES (Valor) — Mr President, Maria Cristina Fernandes from Valor Econômico, good morning. You said yesterday that, during your G20 presidency, during Brazil’s presidency, a climate task force will be created. Secretary-general António Guterres made an appeal, a few months ago, for countries to stop exploring new fossil fuels. Your government, through two ministers, AGU [Advocacia-Geral da União, Brazil’s Attorney General’s Office] and the Ministry of Mines and Energy, has already expressed its support for exploratory research on the equatorial margin of the Pre-Salt. I would like to know if G20, in this task force that you intend to create, will move more towards what the UN defends or what your government defends?

PRESIDENT LULA: Look, first of all, we are not in a dispute with the UN. What we want is for the UN to do the most correct thing possible. Brazil has its positions and will do what it understands is correct to be done. I hope people choose what is best for Planet Earth. Brazil will not stop researching the equatorial margin. If the wealth that is presumed to be there in fact exists, then it is a state decision whether to explore it or not. But, look, this exploration is 575 kilometers away from the banks of the Amazon. It is not close to the Amazon. You cannot be banned from researching. If there is in fact this wealth there, we will discuss whether to use it or not. Whether to explore it or not. But we will carry out research. Because the world needs us to carry out research to find new materials for development – and Brazil will do what Brazil understands is in its sovereign interest to do. It's just that it hasn't been researched yet. It's impossible to know before researching. It's impossible. You may research and come to the conclusion that you have nothing and go home empty-handed. You may research and discover that there are a lot of things, and then discuss how to explore them.

JOURNALIST NIDHI VERMA (Reuters) — Mr President, you mentioned this and I have two brief questions. You mentioned that you will study why Brazil signed the International Criminal Court treaty like China and other countries did. So is there the possibility that you may withdraw from this treaty, Mr President? That's my first question. And the second question is about your association with OPEC. There is always talk about whether Brazil will join OPEC or not. Do you plan to join OPEC?

PRESIDENT LULA: I'm going to tell you no. That we will not join OPEC. But who knows, maybe a year from now you’ll ask me and I’ll say yes. I can't be definitely against it: it depends on political circumstances. I'm not saying that I'm going to withdraw from the ICC; I just want to know why – and this just came up now, I didn't even realize this court existed – the US, India, China and Russia are not signatories and why Brazil is. I want to know what made Brazil make this decision. That's all I want to know. Right? Because it's a lot; I don't even know if France is a signatory, I don't know. It seems to me that the UN Security Council countries are not signatories, only the small ones.

JOURNALIST EDILENE LOPES (Rádio Itatiaia) — Mr President, Edilene Lopes of Rádio Itatiaia do Brasil. I will ask my question in Portuguese.

PRESIDENT LULA: Hey, from Itatiaia to the world, right?

JOURNALIST EDILENE LOPES — Yes. Mr President, do you see a political environment, today, in European Union countries for the approval of the counter-proposal made by the Mercosur countries? And how do you evaluate the approval of Mauro Cid's plea bargain? Do you think it could make ex-president Jair Bolsonaro’s life very complicated?

PRESIDENT LULA: Please repeat your first question, my dear. About Europe.

JOURNALIST EDILENE LOPES — Do you see a political environment today in European Union countries for the approval of the counter-proposal made by Mercosur? To make the agreement, considering certain countries’ stances more to the right? Do you think it will be possible? And the second question is about the approval of the plea bargain.

PRESIDENT LULA: I think it is possible. I always say that, when we want to find a solution for an agreement, we don't send an emissary, we go in person, right? The European Union has its commissions for negotiations – but in our case it’s actually the governments that negotiate. So, I want to sit down with Macron (president of France), with Olaf Scholz (prime minister of Germany) to decide things. That's all. I want to sit down with them and find out what is getting in the way of this agreement. Yesterday I heard the European Union Secretary say that trade agreement negotiators often fail to reach an agreement. When no agreement is reached, politics have to come in. So that's all I want – because it gives the idea that it's Brazil that doesn't want the agreement, or that it's Argentina that doesn't want it. No. What does France think? What does Germany think of the agreement? Because it’s not possible for them to only want to export value-added things and for us to export commodities. In other words, we want to have the right to recover our industrial capacity. We are not committing any crime, any abuse. We just want to go back to being a country with an industrial vocation – and with nothing against agriculture, because I think agriculture is a benefit, an asset to our country.

Regarding the plea bargain, I don't know, my dear. I can't give an opinion about what I don't know. I don't know what's there, right? Only the chief of police who heard the statement and the colonel who gave it know. All the rest is speculation. I think he is highly involved. Things come up every day, and every day we are even surer that there was the prospect of a coup, and that the former president was involved in it to the teeth. This is what will become clear. Time will take care of this. The only chance he had of not participating was when he was selling the jewelry. Other than that, he is responsible for some of the bad things that happened in our country.