Interview by the President of the Republic, Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva, to CNN Internacional, on February 10, 2023

CNN — Mr President – Lula –, welcome to our program.
President Lula — It's my pleasure, Ms Amanpour, to participate in your program.

CNN — President Biden was among the first world leaders to congratulate you on your election victory, and to condemn the uprising on January the 8th. You both have a lot in common, protecting democracy… is that the main central thrust of your meeting here?
President Lula — I believe that all the world’s democrats are obliged to defend democracy. I never imagined that this could happen in the United States of America – the invasion of the Capitol –, just as I never imagined that, in Brazil, following a democratic election, that the Congress, the Supreme Court and the Presidential Palace could be invaded. This means that there is an angry extreme right on the loose in the world – a very, very nervous extreme right that uses fake news as if they were an instrument for politics, for talking to people. And we must destroy the narrative they use against democrats. By the way, yesterday… I want to congratulate President Biden on his speech in the National Congress: it was a very interesting speech. It was as if he was speaking in Brazil, because the same thing is happening in Brazil.

CNN — Your opponent Jair Bolsonaro, the previous president who lost, is here in the United States of America. He has asked for a 6-month visa, but he's already being looked into by your Supreme Court for alleged violations during the uprising. After your inauguration, do you think he should be allowed to stay in the United States? What will you say to President Biden about that?
President Lula — Look, there are already practically 12 lawsuits in Brazil against him – and there will be more. I think that, at some point, he’ll be condemned, in some international Court on the issue of genocide, because of Covid, because half of the people who died did so because of the government’s the irresponsibility of the government – and he could also be punished for the genocide against the Yanomami Indians. A very serious thing happened there, and he encouraged prospectors to throw mercury into the water, to pollute the water, which people drank in that place that is so well hidden from the rest of the country. So I think that at some point he's going to be convicted. He actually didn't even stay in Brazil for my inauguration; he fled Brazil three days before, and even did so on the presidential plane, coming over here to hide in the house of one of his friends. Anyway, one day he'll have to return to Brazil and face all the lawsuits that have been filed against him. Because I can tell you something, I never thought that, in just four years, someone would be able to destroy everything we built over thirteen years in Brazil. He destroyed it all in four. And that's why our motto now is: the Union and Reconstruction of Brazil!

CNN — Will you ask for his extradition – to be deported back to Brazil – or not?
President Lula — Look, I still don't know, because I'm not going to talk to Biden about this, because it all depends a lot on Brazilian Justice. I always work with the idea that everyone has the right to the presumption of innocence. He has the right to explain himself to society, and he has the right to be judged in the most democratic way possible; the way I wasn't. I want – for him – the presumption of innocence that I didn't have. And this doesn’t worry me at all! And I want him to be judged according to the law; I can only bring it up if President Biden brings it up. If President Biden doesn't do so, I didn't come here to bad-mouth a president who everyone knows is a faithful copy of what Trump was in the United States.

CNN — Well, having said that, obviously the January 6th event here was traumatic for this country. Now, a Harvard political scientist has noted that, in Brazil, after January the 8th, your institutions, government, media, public opinion, Supreme Court – everything – were very quick to unify in opposition to the January 8th uprising in your country. Much quicker than the public’s pace here in the United States. So my question to you is: do you believe now, just a month later, that democracy is secure in your country?
President Lula — I believe that the institutions that are created to ensure the democratic process are very prepared to face any attempted coup. Because what happened in Brazil was an attempted coup; possibly organized to take place on the 1st of January, the day of my inauguration. It didn’t happen then because there were too many people; and they decided, when we were all very calm, to make this coup attempt. I can guarantee that Brazilian institutions are committed to the democratic process: the National Congress, the Presidency, the Legislative Power and the Judiciary Power are fully united so that we can ensure democracy. The Church, the trade union movements, society as a whole do not want democracy to be dismantled, to be broken. So I am confident that we’ll move ahead in the process of rebuilding Brazil – and also in rebuilding our good alliance with the United States.

CNN — Democracy also depends on your security forces – and an alarming number of them were seen to be almost in collusion with the demonstrators on January 8th. The selfies; the police escorting them rather than stopping them… Many of them have been fired by you; you've taken immediate action; and many of them are being charged and investigated. My question is: Brazil obviously has a history of a military dictatorship before democracy… Why would the security forces – the Army, the military police, the police – have done that on January 8th? Why were they not stronger?
President Lula — Look, I can guarantee that the impression I have, all the forces that I had to take care of the security of Brasilia were committed to the coup. All of them. We even had to intervene in the state of Brasília, in the governor; we had to make an intervention in the security of Brasilia. We had to establish an intervenor to put everything in order. And the Army commander in Brasilia, despite never appearing to defend a coup… the truth is that they were protecting the camps that were set up in front of the Army headquarters, demanding one. And then I had no doubt: I had to change the commander. I chose another commander: one who favors the law, who knows how to comply with what is established for the Armed Forces within the Constitution. That is: to play a role that is important in any country in the world – and, in Brazil, this role is to defend the interests of the Brazilian people, our sovereignty, and defend the Brazilian people against possible external attacks. This is the role of the Armed Forces and no other. So they cannot be involved in politics.

CNN — Right, but do you think they were giving you a signal, with a warning? You understand that Bolsonaro, your predecessor, had given thousands of military and police types positions in the administration. Are they worried about their perks, their security, their power?
President Lula — No, look, we are discovering all the people who were hired illegally, who were hired because they were trusted by the government; we are moving these people away from the government. We are removing everyone who is not a public servant, and those who were hired during the Bolsonaro government. We have already discovered people receiving salaries in Miami, in Lisbon; we’ve discovered people receiving salaries in Paris – that is, people connected to him who have placed themselves on some council and are still working on behalf of the Brazilian State. All these people will be removed – and the people who are going to work will be responsible people. And I repeat: from now on, the Brazilian Armed Forces will no longer participate in the public process. Whoever wants to participate has to take off his uniform, apply and face the political situation in the same way a civil citizen does – and not try to do so dressed as a military man. The new commander is aware that the Armed Forces cannot get involved in politics.

CNN — President Lula, when you were in power for two terms, you were a cult hero around the world: President Barack Obama was singing your praises, and many people realized, and appreciated, that you had raised tens of millions of poor, poor Brazilians from extreme poverty. It's a different Brazil now: the economy is not great; the agriculture, the commodities, all those prices are not what they were when you were first in office – and it's a very divided country: you won by a tiny little bit! What do you have to do to deliver to the people who voted for you and to unify the country?
President Lula — Look, I always like to use the Brazil I took on in 2003 as reference. Inflation and unemployment were hitting 12% in that Brazil. That Brazil had inflation, and a 30-billion-dollar foreign debt. And we had a public internal debt of 60.7% of the GDP. What did we do? We reduced the public debt from 60.7% to 37%; we paid 30 billion to the IMF and made a reserve of 370 billion dollars; we reduced inflation to 4.5% and generated 22 million formal jobs in Brazil. This is what we did! And that's what we're going to do now! And that's what we're going to do now! And my policy is simple: to include poor people in the budget; poor people have to participate in the economy. There has to be a very strong incentive policy for small and medium individual entrepreneurs. We have to help small and medium-sized companies, and cooperatives. We have to go back to making infrastructure policies, to building popular housing, basic sanitation, roads and railroads; that is, we already have all this in our minds; we already have a project and, more importantly, we know how to do it. And you can be sure that, in four years, you will see Brazil much better than when I received it.

CNN — Mr President, you spoke about your view that, under the previous government, genocide was committed against your people. You talk about the deaths during Covid – and particularly the hundreds of deaths amongst the Yanomami people, the indigenous people, and I know you visited their region in the Amazon recently. What are you going to do, though, also about climate? Because that's another big item on your agenda with President Biden. We watched the Amazon being – you know – not taken care of during the previous government.
President Lula — Ms Amanpour: from 2003 to 2015, during which the Labor Party [Partido dos Trabalhadores/PT] governed Brazil, we reduced deforestation by 80% in the country. We made a commitment in Copenhagen, at COP 15, that we would even reduce greenhouse gas emissions and we did so: by 39.6%. So our commitment to the climate issue is no longer a theoretical election commitment. No! It’s the commitment made by a human being on a planet that must be taken care of. That said, Brazil now harbors 30 million hectares of degraded lands. You don't have to cut down a single tree. You don't have to go where you shouldn't go – to an indigenous reserve, to a forest that is a government designated preservation area; you can't allow anyone to invade these places. So I can assure you: we have a government commitment, a citizen commitment and a humanist commitment: we will reach zero deforestation by 2030. It is our commitment: to try to create the conditions to reach zero deforestation. Then you have to talk to mayors, to governors – and you yourself, instead of punishing, you have to reward those mayors, those governors who ensured that, within their states, there is no more burning, no more unnecessary deforestation. So, instead of punishing them, you encourage them, reward them with some Federal Government incentive so that they feel motivated to participate in the government's actions.

CNN — Well, people who are looking at Brazil's democracy are looking, as I said, at the divided nation. You probably saw a recent article that was written about you, saying that half the population loves you, and half the population despises you. I wonder what you think about that? But also, more importantly: the fact that unifying Brazil is apparently going to be the key to shoring up democracy and making sure that Bolsonaro’s mode does not come back after your term in office. How do you do that when half the population, as I said despises, you?
President Lula — Elections in Brazil are going to happen after elections in the United States. We’re going to see how it’s going to go in the USA – because here there is a very marked division, just as in Brazil. The Democrats and the Republicans are very divided, so it’s take it or leave it! That's more or less what happens. In other words, in Brazil we’re a more peaceful country. The Brazilian citizens’ nature is to be happy; they like music; they like soccer; they like Carnival. This is not a people with the culture, you know, to hate. What happened is that we had a fake news industry which we were unable to fight on equal terms. And I am convinced that not everyone who voted for Bolsonaro is a bolsonarista. I'm convinced that a lot of people who voted for him may not like PT; so they may not like Lula. But look, when one wins an election, one has to govern for everyone. I don't care if the mayor of a city or the state governor is a bolsonarista; what I want to know is if he is interested in helping to solve the problems of the Brazilian people. If he is, let him come! You see, an election will always be split when it has two candidates. It’s always divided. In Germany it’s divided; in France you saw the election of Macron, also a division; here… the only strange thing that happened was what happened at the Capitol; because we never imagined anything like that here – that in the country that symbolizes democracy, someone could invade the Capitol, or someone could be as inhumane as President Trump was. And Bolsonaro is a faithful copy of him! A copy! As if you’d put him in a xerox machine and photocopied him - he’s the same thing! You know, he doesn't like unions, he doesn't like businessmen, he doesn't like workers, he doesn't like women, he doesn't like black people, he doesn't like talking to businessmen. So it’s him and his lies; his bragging and boasting. He doesn't like talking to the press, so we changed everything, my dear! We changed. I think Brazil is slowly finding itself, and that, little by little, democracy will prevail. This is my commitment. And I hope that four years from now you can interview me again, and you may see it will be a democracy. And I'll tell you one thing: Bolsonaro has no chance of returning to the Presidency of Brazil! Now it will depend on our ability to build the correct narrative of what he represented to Brazil. Because this extreme right is all over the world. It has been in the United States; it is in Brazil, in Spain, in France, in Hungary, in Germany; that is, it is an organized extreme right that – if we are not careful – is a Nazi attitude! It’s a denialist attitude which we had never seen before. So, since I like democracy – and democracy is the best way for one to be in power, living democratically in diversity –, I am going to talk to President Biden, because we must improve our political relationship, our cultural relationship, our commercial relationship, you know, the United States is very important to us – and I think Brazil is rather important to the United States. And what we want is for two great nations that are democratic to be able to help strengthen democracy across Latin America and across planet Earth itself.

CNN — You talk a lot about democracy, Mr President, and it looks like you're going to come up against President Biden on a key defense of the United States, of democracy around the world – and that is Ukraine. You do not believe, I don't think, in the Western support for Ukraine's defense, and you have said it many times. Why not? I mean, some people have asked, in fact, in an article: why is Lula so committed to democracy at home and not abroad?
President Lula — I’m extremely committed to democracy anywhere on planet Earth. I think that, in the case of Ukraine and Russia, there has to be someone who speaks in peace, there must be interlocutors to try to talk with both sides. This is my thesis, that is, we must find interlocutors who can sit down with President Putin and show him the mistake he made by invading the territorial integrity of Ukraine; and we have to show Ukraine that it is crucial to learn to talk more to avoid this war; we must stop this war. So what am I going to talk to President Biden about? I don't know what he's going to talk to me about, but what I want to talk to him about is that a group of countries must be established to negotiate peace.

CNN — You have those countries: the BRICs. You’re one of them. Russia, China, India. None of them seems to want to talk about peace: they’re just basically talking about Russia.
President Lula — I want to talk about peace, I want to talk about peace with Putin, I want to talk about peace with President Biden, I want to talk about peace with Xi Jinping, I want to talk about peace with India, I want to talk about peace with Indonesia, I want to talk about peace with everyone, because to me the world will only develop if there is peace, if there is tranquility.

CNN — Okay, that's nice – but do you believe that a country which is a sovereign, independent, democratic country like your own, like Ukraine, has the right to self-defense and to defend itself against an illegal invasion?
President Lula — Of course it has the right to defend itself, because the invasion was a mistake by Russia; it could not have done that – and after all it is part of the National Security Council, and wasn’t this discussed in the Security Council? So what I want to say is this: Look, whatever wrongdoing that had to be done has already been. Now, we must find people to try to help fix it. And I know that Brazil isn’t very important on the world stage, you know, in this perverse logic of the world's conflicts, but I can tell you that I'm going to commit to seeing if I can find a way for someone to talk in peace. I was with the German Chancellor these days; he was in Brazil.

CNN — He asked you to send his Leopards to Ukraine and you said no.
President Lula — It was to send ammunition and I didn't want to send it, because I said that, if I send it, I'll join the war, I said if I send you know the ammunition you're asking for I'll join the war, I don't want to join the war, I want to end the war. This is my dilemma and this is my commitment, you know; I’m now visiting China in March; I’m going to talk a lot with the president of China about the role he has to play in the issue of peace, and this is my work. I spoke with the German Chancellor, I spoke with Macron, I will speak with President Biden, I will speak with Xi Jiping, I will speak with the Indians, I will speak with all countries. We have to have a group of people who speak in peace and show that peace is the only thing that can restore the dignity of human life, the right to work and live with dignity, decently. That's what the Ukrainians have to understand; now, a narrative must be established, you know, because Russia isn’t just any country, so you have to create a narrative that gives them the minimum conditions to stop, like the United States stopped the Vietnam War. It wasn't easy to stop, but it had to stop one day, so if it started wrong we have to fix it now. Stop the war and then we'll discuss what we really want at a negotiation table.

CNN — Can I ask you a final question, a personal question? You've had a dramatic life story, a dramatic comeback to power, after having been in prison. You also have survived this January 8th challenge, this insurrection. You're also the oldest Brazilian president ever to be inaugurated. President Biden is one of the oldest American presidents. What drives you on? What drives people like you, at your age, to keep doing this?
President Lula — Ms Amanpour, I always like to say that old age only exists for those who don’t have a cause: if you have a cause and you dedicate yourself to it, old age doesn’t exist, it ceases to exist. That’s why I say, every single day – I'm 77 years old but I say: I have the energy of a 30-year-old; I'm willing to work 24 hours a day; I don't count when I’m working, because I have a cause: my cause is the Brazilian people, I have to improve people’s lives, I have to show them that they can eat three times a day. We had ended hunger in Brazil; now, there are 33 million people going hungry in a country that is the third largest producer of food in the world; in a country that is the largest animal protein producer on the planet. How can that explain people getting hungry? So, once again, I'm going to put an end to hunger in this country; we're once again going to make the Brazilian economy grow; we're once again going to create jobs, because that's what I want for Brazil. I saw Biden's speech yesterday; I read his entire speech. I think it’s a speech that could easily be given in Brazil; if I gave – in Brazil, today – the speech that Biden gave in the US Congress I would be called a communist in Brazil. The market would call me a communist.

CNN — You know they do call you a communist, your detractors! Anyway, on that note, President Lula, thank you.
President Lula — The market is ungrateful, because it never made as much money in its life as it did during my government.

CNN — Thank you very much for being with us. It was a real pleasure, thank you.
President Lula — Thank you, Amanpour.

 Portuguese version of the transcript of the interview given to CNN Internacional